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Once Again Rejected by “Men” Accepted By Christ

January 11, 2016

Greetings,

Jesus said:

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.  Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”  Matthew 5: 11-12

Well, I guess according to those two verses all I can say is that right now I am very blessed indeed.  It is too self serving to claim those verses for myself, but last night I received three encouraging phone calls and in two of the three calls these verses were quoted.  Plus in the other call similar things were said to encourage me.  The Spirit prompted these folks to call and lift me up.  All I can say is that God’s timing is always perfect.

In the last few days several people have broken fellowship with me, questioned my devotion to God, my salvation, and my view of scripture.  This is all because recently I have said that I am not sure about the doctrine of the Trinity.  I do wholeheartedly accept God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit as being totally real and active in my life.  I am just not certain that the Spirit can be called a person, He is just so more comprehensive and beyond that to me.  To me the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of Christ.  That is just me being open, honest and real folks.  I could lie and toe the party line, but in the true Body of Christ why would I ever want to do such a thing?

I know and appreciate what the Spirit has taught me over the past nearly 50 years.  I find it odd that the Trinity (a non-biblical word) is not something that He has revealed to me in all these years.  Man teaches this doctrine, but does that mean I should automatically accept it and go against the Spirit’s teaching?  The big question is:  Should ones stance regarding such a doctrine be a standard test for fellowship and salvation?

Me?  I accept anyone who loves Jesus and calls Him their Lord.  If they follow Him in the big picture I am certain that any other details can be worked out over time and fellowship.  If we agree on who Jesus is we should be able to walk together and figure the rest out in His good time.  God hates divisions and to divide over doctrine before giving our sibling relationships a real chance to grow and mature is a HUGE mistake in my humble opinion.

The traditional “church” has many doctrinal obstacles in the way of true fellowship and life in Him.  The same should not be true in totally open and free, organic, Spirit led and relational fellowship.  Jesus never made me take a test about doctrine or scriptural knowledge in order to enter into a relationship with Him.  He called me His child and friend and then began to teach me all I needed to know about life in Him.  Cutting people off over doctrinal disputes is like aborting a baby before it grows to full term and is born.  It takes time with Him to learn and grow into the disciples He intends us to be, but if we walk with Him and one another long enough we will all eventually grow up to where we can be fully birthed into His amazing truth and love.  I don’t consider myself to be fully there yet, but I hope to be in the future.

Love and ……

Kirk Out !

P.s.  This is an updated post from nearly 2 years ago.  However, the almost exact same things have occurred over the last several days.  They are the same accusations and the same response, just different people.  Thanks for both your reading and your prayers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 Comments
  1. It’s their problem, not yours Kirk. May peace and grace be mulitiplied to you.
    ( Paul said that greeting a LOT, and I like it, bcos I think we all need that these days).

  2. 2trakmind permalink

    I’m with you, brother. I do not embrace the notion of trinity in quite the same way people tend to, though it could be argued that it is pretty much the same thing. For as much as people like to say God is “three in one,” they draw very clear distinctions between Father, Son & Holy Spirit; assigning them each roles and responsibilities, then debate and divide over what is essentially split hairs. To me, rather than three in one, God is one in the same. I think dividing God up is more for our own comprehension, making Him understandable to our feeble minds. He has interacted with creation in various forms, but all three forms are sourced from ONE that IS GOD, therefore there is truly only one God.

    I’ll be honest, I have even been wrestling with idea of God having gender. Though God is identified with gender pronouns in the Bible, I don’t really see Him having gender, at all. Maybe better said, I see God as being neither male, nor female, and at the same time, encompassing all gender in one. To take it further, I am becoming increasingly unsure of how to speak of God. To me, calling God God makes God smaller and more manageable in our minds. To me, the concept of God is ever-expanding and I am beginning to identify with the Jews; feeling less and less comfortable with uttering His “name,” purely because it shrinks Him, rather than acknowledging that He is beyond our words, and our concepts of Him.

    • Wow Kevin/2trak, What you shared really resonates in me. I too believe in one God who happens to express Himself in 3 distinct manners as Father, Jesus and Spirit. Thanks for sharing brother!

    • "BK" permalink

      I believe the reason for such misunderstanding of gender is the use of ‘He’. What recent generations have lost is the fact ‘he’ is a pronoun that USED TO depict a mix. Like, when writing business letters we used to always say “Dear Sir”, regardless of who it was mailed to gender-wise. Likewise the terms ‘postman’, ‘insurance man’, ‘policeman’….our current generation now uses ‘person’, etc. The term ‘brethren’ used in the scripture is an inclusive word that refers to both men and women. Current tranlsations often use ‘brothers’ and this really gives a wrong message.
      Lastly, I believe it is pretty clear in Genesis that God said, “Let us make man in our image. MALE and FEMALE created He THEM.” People miss that. So, I don’t have a problem (most likely because of my generation using ‘he’ inclusively) still calling God “he or him”, but knowing He is both masculine and feminine. I do also believe the Hebrew word Yahweh, spelled YHVH has gender specific renderings on those letters that are masculine, neutral, feminine, neutral. Saying all this to say you are correct in seeing Him as both masculine and feminine. He most certainly is.
      Just wanted to add a comment on this, “BK”

  3. Tom Ball permalink

    I like what John Wesley said about doctrinal/theological differences…
    ..
    “Is thy heart as mine? If so, give me thine hand.”

    I have far too far to go spiritually myself, to argue over doctrine.

  4. Interesting view. If you’ve read the shack you’ll understand where I’m coming from with this the way the book brought God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to “life” spoke to me, and gave me such a greater understanding to the Trinity, and how each one really is it’s own separate entity that exists inside the same “body”.

    I fully believe in the trinity but far to often I feel like we place more importance for one over the other, while there really is no “head” they all co-exist. I idea of this no authority type relationship was awesome to me.

    I really feel as if God is way bigger then just what we imagine as “the trinity” but I also feel that he knows that our minds could not possibly understand or comprehend all that he truly is so he put those “persona” in place to help us connect to him. We no longer have things like pillars of fire or burning bushes or sacred arks within holy places mainly because the divine has chosen indwelling instead of outer dwelling places, and while this is amazing and should make our hearts skip a beat, it also makes it difficult to connect with as we have no “proof” except that of our Faith, and to help better understand even a fraction of who God is he gave us the trinity, sadly we use use it too much to try to define God, and put him in a box.

  5. April, “The Shack” is one of my favorite books ever! I just love and appreciate the dialogue between Mac, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Yes, the Lord still has vivid conversations with HIs children. And such give and take conversations ought to be the norm for true followers of Christ rather than a rare occurrence.

  6. I guess I see it like this:
    We are made in the image (pattern) of God… and we are three (body, soul, spirit).
    Yet we are one, indivisible.

    Likewise then, God is three ( God the Son aka Jesus, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit aka Christ’s or Christ or Anointing)

    So then what people saw here on earth was Jesus + Christ aka Jesus Christ etc. In full communication with Father God so effectively God walking here on earth. .

    When Jesus Left he sent down the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believers so we to could once again be reconnected to Father God… so the Holy Spirit is the Teacher, the advacate, the searcher of the mind and heart of Father God for us.

    There are 3 different ‘parts’ or expressions of God but it is difficult to separate them… in fact they cannot be separated…. they are one.

    Not sure if that helps or not?

  7. Rich Chamberlin permalink

    Good comments. “persons” is rather silly term for clear 3 part God. Example for us of unity, is in 3 working together, each with own gifts, ability, assignment, so to speak, as we are many persons in one, living, spirit body of The Christ. I prefer 3 faces of God. As you move around a large pyramid, you will see 3 different sides or faces, yet internally, all share the – well, everything. Externally, each face shared a side with each other face. Of course, God is Spirit, so all 3 faces are divine Spirit. So, why is one called the Holy Spirit? Of course, Christ told of several other, specific, practical names, perhaps it would us to us those.

  8. Jonathan Lindvall permalink

    I undoubtedly disagree with you an numerous theological issues, but who can be certain he fully (or accurately) understands these mysteries? You and I need not agree on very many things to still jointly love Jesus and embrace one another as brothers. It is not our “beliefs” that determine whether we are alive in Christ. It is “birth” and “abiding” in His kingdom. Certainly there some basic things one must believe to be alive in Christ, but believing those things doesn’t produce life (“the demons believe and tremble”).

    I can only find four things we absolutely believe to be part of Christ. 1) We must believe that God exists and 2) that He knows us & loves to respond to our desire to know Him (Hebrews 11:6, “he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him”). We also must must believe that 3) Jesus is actively our leader who we commit to obeying, and that 4) this same Jesus who was crucified is now alive in the flesh, having been physically raised from the dead (Romans 10:9, “if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved”).

    These minimal beliefs do not produce life. There are many who believe these facts in a theoretical/academic sense, but have no real relationship with Jesus. Although these beliefs are clearly essential, it is relationship with the living Jesus that is the real issue.

  9. These comments all show what I love about the true Body of Christ. There is sheer beauty in our diversity that allows and encourages us to share the various perspectives we have seen and come to believe concerning what The Spirit has revealed to and in each one of us.

  10. daryl permalink

    I’m kind of unclear as to what you are not sure about concerning the doctrine of the trinity and why someone would break fellowship with you for questioning the Holy Spirit being a person.If you were denying that the Holy Spirit was God(which I don’t believe you do),I could see someone being concerned as their is abundance evidence that He is ….but for just having difficulty referring to Him as a person,seems silly.I know that Jesus was fully God and fully man,but I still find it hard to relate to him as a man tempted just like me,because he had no sin nature.He got tired,hungry,thirsty,but he did not struggle with greed,pride,lust,selfishness etc,
    Anyways,for what its worth,I certainly believe in a tri-une God,but who can possibly comprehend that and understand it fully?

    • Ramma permalink

      Hi Daryl, while reading your comments….the scripture popped that says……he was tempted in all points as we are……yet without sin. I’ve taken that as he didn’t yield to it, yet he still felt the pull to sin. Do you think that is what that is saying?
      Also, I don’t think we have enough details about his personal , daily life to know what He really went through. Thanks for your wonderful thoughts as always.

      • daryl permalink

        I’m not really sure,Ramma.I just don’t think Jesus had any propensity to sin as we do,,,and that’s hard to relate to.For example,many men encountering the woman at the well,though having no bad intentions or looking to sin….finding her attractive and friendly,may soon find themselves entertaining sinful thoughts and in a “struggle” with sin.I don’t think Jesus had that struggle.He just ministered.By the way,for me,it doesn’t really matter.I don’t have to feel like Jesus actually felt every temptation we have to help us,or know how great his love is. I didn’t intend to get off subject of the post.I was kind of relating this to what Chris said about Holy Spirit being a person. Thanks for your comment.

  11. daryl, Yes The Holy Spirit is God, The Father is God and Jesus is most definitely God.

  12. "BK" permalink

    I, too, loved the Shack. I am another ‘dissenter’ who doesn’t see the Holy Spirit as ‘a person’ 🙂 .
    If He was a person, then when He overshadowed Mary Jesus would have been HIS son and not the Father’s, right?? Simply put I see the Father and the Son and the Spirit by which they live; of which they are constitued; by which they indwell all of us. I thought the Shack did a beautiful job of portraying this by how the author showed the Spirit as not ever really taking a definite shape. Once as I was trying to figure out the ‘who is greater and who do I pray to’ along the way, I felt like the Spirit asked me if I ever noticed when Jesus was on this earth He always pointed people to the Father; and when the Father spoke, He pointed people to His Son. He said, “We don’t have an identity crisis or power struggle.” I liked that! 🙂 On Jesus not having a sinful nature, I believe He did….He just demonstrated that when filled with Spirit we don’t have to yield to it. James tells me when I am tempted I am drawn away OF MY OWN LUST and enticed; Hebrews says Jesus was tempted like me…..so He must have had lust that tried to draw Him away. That’s as simple as I know how to express it….hoping it’s not too earthshaking. Just my random thoughts as I read along and enjoy the fellowship, “BK”

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