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Are We Really Listening?

April 21, 2013

Greetings,

“I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.  As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.  But as His anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit- just as it has taught you, remain in Him.”  1 John 2: 26-27

Tim B. a pastor/elder in his current church made the following comment on my last blog:

” If you don’t have a pastor, and you refuse to have one, then you are in disobedience to King Jesus.”

It seems to me that Tim’s comment flies directly against the passage I just quoted.  Tim says you must have a pastor/teacher or you are going against Jesus. Just where are those words in red?  Seriously Tim, Jesus said “You must be born again.”, but He did NOT say “You must have a pastor.” That is exactly the type of teaching that John says will lead us astray.  We are not to be dependent on any man or woman.  For anyone to say we need a human leader or shepherd other than Jesus is, I dare say anti-christ?  No, I am not calling Tim an anti-christ, but the comment he made just might be.

The real truth is that we do not need anyone to teach us.  Because in the Spirit we have His anointing to teach us about ALL THINGS.  His anointing is real, not fake and it continually teaches us to remain in Him.  Again, in Him we lack nothing!

Now there are a multitude of ways that His anointing teaches us including…direct revelation from the Spirit, revelation from the bible, nature and via the anointed words of other Christ followers.  The key is to look and listen for His anointing in all things and all people.  The Spirit will guide us into all truth this way.  When I listen to people I am always listening for His voice, His anointing, and His truth in what they are sharing.  When I am open and attentive to Him in any circumstance, He is able to reach and teach me what I need to know at that exact moment.  It is crucial that we be in the flow of the Holy Spirit at all times.  When I am surrendered like that I am able to discern the difference between His anointed words and all other types of words.

I guess what I am saying here today is that God is still speaking.  In fact He never stopped.  HE via His anointing and Spirit teaches us everything we need to know concerning the past, present and future.  And He does not just speak through a select few humans such as pastors and elders.  His voice can still be heard in almost everyone and every situation.  The key is are we really listening?  His sheep hear His voice and obey.  Jesus is the One and Only true Shepherd.  Please listen for His voice and follow only Him?

Love and……

Kirk Out ! 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 Comments
  1. Chris,
    Well said, I hear the Holy Spirit in those words. This is how we recognize brothers by the Spirit of God within them. The essence of the church hierarchical system, is itself Antichrist. Jesus said call no man Rabbi (teacher) Master, Father, or Lord. The Lord was not against using these terms, He was, and is, against any human taking the place of headship over another human being. Headship in the near east of the first century meant source, the same as “head waters”. In the Antichrist church system, sheep are trained by example to become little heads/sources/horns/authorities under the example and headship of the Big Head/Source/Horn the Pastor (Shepherd). They call this leadership training, it works the same way in the worlds/kosmos’ business systems. After your leadership training, you are ready to take your place as a cog in the bigger church machine. Your little head/authority/horn flows from the Big Head/Source/Horn Authority, the Pastor(Greek -poimēn- Shepherd). The Poimēn in almost all other New Testament usages refers to the Great and ONLY Shepherd Himself -Jesus. Pastor is used only once in the NT in Ephesians, here it gives away the usurpers intention (by falsely placing Shepherding/Headship in the supposed five fold ministry). To take the place of the ONE AND ONLY GREAT SHEPHERD in the lives of the sheep. No man can serve two masters, he will most often love the one, and at least ignore the other. What we see so often is that people love their pastor/authority/source/teacher. The children of Israel wanted a king/source/leader that they could see, to be like the other nations/world systems had. They did not care to be led by the invisible God, that would make them look foolish. So we see today people want a god that they can see, like the one standing up on the stage with the hyped music and spotlights, and ignore the One whom he cannot see with their naturals eyes. With the visible god it is possible to get immediate results. With a visible source your can push your way through the crowds at the end of the service and get that “special touch” ,blessing, counsel or prayer. There is no waiting and instant gratification is available from the one whom you believe to be your real god.

    “The gentiles lord it over one another, it shall not be so with you” -Jesus. “If any man wants to be a leader he must be the slave/servant of all” -Jesus. The kingdom of our God stands as an oxymoron to the world system and that includes its churches which are but a religious subset of the larger world system/order. This can be seen as they function in the same way. The Way of the Anointed One is transcendent of all of these worldly orders, churches included, today the Great Shepherd of the sheep is leading His sheep out the pens of these usurpers, Pastor/Shepherds/Sources/Heads to His Own pen outside of the camp. Will we hear His voice?

  2. Jorge permalink

    A warning against false teaching isn’t the same as a warning against all teaching. If that were the case, Paul wouldn’t have planted churches he would have just shared the gospel and moved on, leaving individuals on their own to hear from Jesus directly. Without submission there is no discipleship. Discipleship is not to be done blindly… that’s where Paul’s encouragement/warning comes in… if at any time your pastor/mentor gives instruction that does not fall in line with the Gospel, we are to confront it with the Word of God. For example, how does the interpretation of 1 John 2:26-27 found in this blog match up with Ephesians 4:1-16? or 1 Timothy 3:1-13; 4:6-16; 5:17-25; or Chapter 6; or 2 Timothy 3:10-17?

    I get it… some ministers have caused a great deal of pain… there have been false teachers, and unhealthy churches. Take great care in ascribing all churches as anti-Christ. Giving up on the modern church is one thing… but abandoning the idea of discipleship, mentorship, and the five-fold ministry is false teaching. 2 blogs in a row about it reveal a very bitter fruit, from a wounded tree.

    The upside of being a Christian who only relies on what he/she hears from God directly is you never have to submit to anyone else (Hebrews 13:7). No need to receive correction from anyone else (Proverbs 21:1). The downside is… if you are off track there is no one there to provide the correction you need (Galatians 6:1) and you do not have the means to demonstrate a servant’s heart. There is no one there to pray over you, nor to encourage you, nor bring correction.

  3. Catherine S. permalink

    Amen, Chris (and Mark)! I wish blogs allowed “Like” — there are many times I can’t improve on what’s been said, but I want to show my support of it.

  4. Jorge, I am neither bitter or wounded and I am not abandoning discipleship, mentoring or the gifts. All those good things are meant to happen as the whole Body of Christ does its calling. I am accountable to everyone in the Body and anyone in the Spirit is free to correct me. The modern “church” fails at just about every stage, because a select few are actually holding back the whole Body. Every Christ follower should have a vibrant ministry as they simply live life in Him together. In Christ’s true church their are no hierarchies with some people over and above others. In Christ we are all equal peers and The Lord may use anyone of us, at any time, to do/be what we are supposed to…

    • Johanna Lemmon permalink

      Well said and I agree with Catherine; its hard to add to what you and Mark are expressing. It’s a beautiful revelation to understand our equality with one another and how each one of us is vital and equally important in the Body of Christ. Blessings to you and all my brothers and sisters 🙂

  5. Tav permalink

    Being submitted to a particular pastor in no way indicates any sort of submission or accountability whatsoever. How can one human being know enough about the intimate details of the lives of the multitude of “their” congregation to be in a position to offer any sort of real protection? Come on now. Any sort of true accountability (i.e. protection) is only found in true relationships – which are rare to happen in the traditional church setting.

    Believe me, I participated in that dog and pony show for many, many years in different settings with different leaders. It’s not the fault of the clergy. It’s really not. They are trained to believe that they are in charge of everyone’s spiritual lives. I know because I went through the training (read=brainwashing) to believe that I was really more important than I really was.

    The only way the traditional church knows to offer “accountability” is to offer control. They are not the same things. One is organic, while the other is institutional or corporate in flavor.

    There were slave owners in the South who didn’t mistreat their slaves. That argument cannot be used to say that slavery is okay because ALL the slave owners weren’t horrible. It’s not about the treatment of the slaves. It’s the fact that people are enslaved. That’s the issue. There is no defense for the clergy system, just like there is no defense for slavery. It’s wrong and it will probably take a civil war within the body of Christ for things to be made right – just as in the issue of slavery. Whenever you mess with a slaveowners money, you’re going to have a fight on your hands.

  6. "BK" permalink

    I would like to address my question to Tim if that’s ok? I wondered two things, Tim. 1) Can you tell me where you find what you stated “If you don’t have a pastor, and you refuse to have one, then you are in disobedience to King Jesus.” in scripture? and 2) Can you tell me who was the pastor of Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, Phillipi or Rome? Actually, if you can just tell me the pastor’s name of any one of those it I would be interested. Thanks, “BK”

  7. Tav, May I share you post on, “Was Church God’s Idea?”
    Marc

  8. “BK”- I’m sorry that I didn’t get to answering your other Q’s (that you referenced on the “He Gve Us Everything” post)- I must have missed those. Let me answer a couple of your Q’s, then make comment on the whole post.

    “1) Can you tell me where you find what you stated “If you don’t have a pastor, and you refuse to have one, then you are in disobedience to King Jesus.” in scripture?”

    In all of the letters that Paul wrote to Churches that make mention of overseers (or elders, pastors- they’re all the same designation), there is the manifold inference that those letter are addressed to ALL of the believers there. The NT knows nothing of a believer or group of believers that continue in fellowship together without elders. In fact, ordaining elders was so important that Paul exhorted Titus to do so (“…that you might put in order what was left unfinished”) on Crete. One of the reasons for this is clear from the context as seen in vs.’s 10-16, namely to protect the Church from false teachers.

    We can conclude that someone without a pastor is also someone who is not in fellowship with the NT Church model, hence does not rightly discern the body. Nor can they do any of what you referenced in the last post from Hebrews 13. So then, it’s no leap to conclude that this ‘elder-less’ person is simply in disobedience, since they have removed themselves from the obligations of obeying any of the exhortations that believers have in their relationship to elders.

    “2) Can you tell me who was the pastor of Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, Phillipi or Rome? Actually, if you can just tell me the pastor’s name of any one of those it I would be interested.”

    That’s like asking for the name of the donkey that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on- it would be nice to know, but it doesn’t change the fact that He did indeed ride a donkey. The NT doesn’t specifically tell us what their names are, yet we know from the NT that those Churches all had elders—in fact, every NT Church had elders.

    You also made quite a few hyperbolic (even ‘straw-man’) statements in previous post, so since they don’t apply to me I won’t address them.

    Chris- I don’t believe that the Bible contradicts itself. Do you? You’re under the impression that this one verse from 1 John contradicts and mitigates against all of the other verses that contextually give directions about elders and NT Church polity. If you’ll look at the context, it’s right in the middle of a section on false teachers and doctrine. In fact, the verse immediately preceding the one you gave is “I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.” He not saying that they be ‘teacherless’, rather, that in view of the confusion coming from the false teachers, they can rely on the truth that comes from the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and not to worry about those who had gone “out from us, but they were not of us”.

    You said that my view “is exactly the type of teaching that John says will lead us astray.” I just demonstrated that it isn’t. You said that this idea might be of the antichrist- and you are sorely mistaken about this. In your previous post you appealed to the lcak of support for my position in the “red-letters”. If you believe that the “red-letters” are of any more importance than the “black letters”, then 2 Tim. 3:16 doesn’t actually mean “all Scripture” to you, does it?

    I think that Jorge is right, and he answered much of what I brought up here, but for some reason it wasn’t paid any heed. He also brought up one very important thing: taking all of Scripture and rightly handling it. No one interacted with his salient question “…how does the interpretation of 1 John 2:26-27 found in this blog match up with Ephesians 4:1-16? or 1 Timothy 3:1-13; 4:6-16; 5:17-25; or Chapter 6; or 2 Timothy 3:10-17?” either because no one really cares about his question, or about exegesis, or perhaps it’s because no one can answer his question without exposing a glaringly sub-orthodox view of Scripture.

    You may make reference to me all you like, but until I’m convinced that anyone here is really interested in actual interaction, and not just fluff and hyperbole, I’ll probably not be hanging around anymore.

    (“BK”- you’ve interacted, and I wouldn’t mind more- just not here. Look me up if you like–I don’t know how to do the same- sorry!)

    • "BK" permalink

      Well, if you’re still here I’d sure appreciate knowing what my ‘straw man’ statements were. One can’t very well consider positive criticism from a general statement. You said, “We can conclude that someone without a pastor is also someone who is not in fellowship with the NT Church model, hence does not rightly discern the body.” I actually conclude the opposite….if someone has A pastor they are in direct conflict with elderS, plural. I’m sorry I missed Jorge’s questions….blog style is a bit hard for me. There really is no problem with matching all those scriptures when one realizes we are submitted to ALL the body, as He, the Anointing, appears in them. Eph 4 isn’t about a select few people….it’s about the varied ways the Spirit manifests Itself in the body of believers….the ‘all’. It’s stated pretty clearly except that we’ve always been fed the emphasis of 4:11 being about the ‘five-fold’ or ‘pulpit’ ministry so we miss it. “BK”

    • "BK" permalink

      I tried to find you but came up with nothing. My email is zbkzimmer@gmail.com and our fellowship site is GatheringUn2Him@yahoogroups.com if you want to let me know how to find you. Although I agree with Chris K, you will be missed here. “BK”

  9. Tim, If you decide to leave and never interact here again I will miss you. Perhaps we can get a cup of coffee together next time you are up my way? As I have said before I have elders and those with pastoral gifts in my life, but they operate as peers with a gifting and not as a superior “officer”. I do believe that all scripture is God breathed and useful and profitable, but I also feel that Jesus’s very own words carry more weight. Your portion will be missed here. Much of what you share helps to bring balance to the conversation and provoke further thought, I guess the big question to me is …how do we take the truths of the bible and apply them relationally instead of intellectually. The church is supposed to be a family and not an organization or business. I always want to know what will further our relationship with Christ and one another. Knowing full well that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

  10. Tav permalink

    Marc, yes you may post my comments on “Was Church God’s Idea.” I’m glad I said something worth sharing. lol

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