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If This Is True It Changes Everything Concerning The Role Of Women In The Church

March 26, 2013
Greetings,
 
The following is a response to my latest blogs on the role of women in the Church.  It was posted in another online venue.  I am not endorsing this response or saying that I am in 100% agreement with it, but what it suggests prompts me to further investigate the issue.  I now post it in hopes that it does the same for you.  The God I serve allows and encourages me to ask very difficult questions as I continue to search for His Truth.
 
Love and…….
 
Kirk Out !
 
Wayne’s response:
 
“I have not posted here in a long time and hesitate to do so now, since what I
have to say may not go over well. I have outgrown the hobby of battling over
doctrine, but this is not a doctrinal abstraction. The role of women in the
church is a critical issue and deserves more serious attention than biblical
literalists have given it.

Kirk already quoted the authoritative text on the subject: “You are all sons of
God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you were baptized into Christ have
clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free,
male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3: 26-28

The notorious anti-woman passages in the Pauline epistles are not authoritative
since they were not written by Paul.

It has long been recognized that the pastoral epistles were written by a 2nd
Century churchman referred to as Deutero-Paul or Pseudo-Paul. Over 1/3 of the
vocabulary is not used anywhere else in the Pauline epistles, and over 1/5 is
not used anywhere else in the New Testament, while 2/3 of the non-Pauline
vocabulary are used by 2nd century Christian writers. Modern linguistic analysis
software used by the FBI and NSA confirms what Erasmus said five centuries ago:
Romans and the Patorals were not written by the same guy.

So that eliminates 1 Timothy 2:11-15, where women are forbidden to teach.

The anti-woman passages in 1 Corinthians also appear to be later interpolations.
Chapter 11 vs. 3-16 appears incongruously in the middle of a passage about
“eating and drinking.” If you subtract 3-16, verses 2 and 17 fit seamlessly
together, with an ironic parallel use of the phrase “I praise you.”

Likewise, remove 1 Cor. 14:34-38 and verses 33 and 39 mesh together perfectly.

Now every trace of misogyny has vanished from the writings of Paul, and we are
left with a man whose attitude toward women was surprisingly progressive for a
1st Century Jew or Roman. Actually, it is not all that surprising when we
consider that Paul was a man with a single-minded mission: his obsession was
preaching Christ and making disciples. If there were women willing to serve as
co-laborers with him, a man like that would not bother about man-made rules of
social propriety.

Kirk has already shown that the real Paul’s policies regarding the role of women
in the church were at variance with Pseudo-Paul and his fundamentalist
expositors.

Please see an amazing Wikipedia article titled “Paul the Apostle and Women.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle_and_women

Wayne”

 
 
 
 
 

 

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24 Comments
  1. Kirk and Wayne,

    Bravo! George and I have noticed these same incongruities in Paul’s letters as well… how he seems to totally contradict himself when it comes to women in the church. We have discovered that the copiests often wrote the marginal notes of the monks into the text and thus they got incorporated in later versions of the N. T.

    This brings forth the reason that Jesus specified that He would send His Spirit to lead us into all truth (not a leather bound book) and John making it quite plain that we who have the Spirit have an unction that teaches us all things and have no need of human teachers if we will but hear His voice. They knew that men would tamper with the holy writ down through the ages. When you are reading along in the Bible and something you read just doesn’t fit or you get that little check in your spirit, chances are that you have come across one of those tampered with verses or passages that take away (if believed) our freedom in the Spirit. We have discovered that there are many of such verses that seek to establish hierarchy in the N. T., but were falsely translated in the KJV with the intent of the King and his bishops to keep the people of England in bondage to them. We have written about many of these verses and about the plot behind it in our book, “The Great Ecclesiastical Conspiracy.” http://www.awildernessvoice.com/GEC.html

    Remember, our freedom in Christ is only true spiritual freedom as we are IN CHRIST! There is no true freedom in the flesh. We must “put on Christ” and put off the old Adam to be truly free in the Spirit.

  2. What is the REAL Gospel (Good News)?
    Following the New Testament Scriptures, when viewed through simple literalistic, legalist, interpretations, is not very good news. Bible teaching is NOT the Good News. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Jesus came to impart to us His life (zoe).

    2 Corinthians 3:6 who made us adequate to be servants of a new covenant not based on the letter but on the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Literalistic rendering of the Scriptures to date have afforded us over 40,000 Bible believing divisions of Christ. Is Christ divided? No. So what is the problem? The problem can be traced almost all of the way back to the beginning, when individual faith in Christ became a religion. When Christ’s return appeared to be delayed (eminent return was expected) and believers multiplied, organization was sought to keep things straight while Christ apparently delayed. What had been a few scattered letters of Paul, and some written accounts of Christ life were pressed into greater service. To organize the multitudes of believers’ new letters were invented after Paul’s death, wrongly attributed to Paul. These are the “pastoral” Epistles –I and II Timothy, and Titus, as well as II Thessalonians.
    Dealing with the delay became the problem of the day. Heretofore the leadership of the Spirit was the sought after guiding light in all manner of governance for believers as Paul says in – Romans 8:14 and Galatians 5:18. Now, in the late first and early second centuries, writings with apostolic authority was sought after to direct and “organize” the practice of the faith. Using the newly invented Pastoral Epistles, church leader began setting up hierarchical structures, and making Scriptural text the rules to obey. Making disciples, in the way Christ Himself did, gave way to herding. In herding all is lost in the work of the Spirit. God’s value of the individual, gives way to the value of the herd/group/the collective. Individuality, uniqueness, the Spirit speaking to and through the individuals, is quashed for the sake of the group. It takes patience and time with individuals, as Christ did with the 12, to see spiritual maturity develop. What was designed by God to be the spiritual renewal and elevation of the individual in personal relationship to Him, has now morphed into crowd control. When we as individuals loose value, the whole of the group loses value, it is NOT Good News. It is when we as individuals realize we are loved and valued as uniquely created by and for the Lord, we rejoice.
    What began as a perceived necessity (organization) became the death nail. The fluidity and spiritual reality of knowing Christ by the Spirit gave way organization. The spiritual kingdom of God once realized in individual lives, became worldly organizations. When functioning in the same way as all other world systems/organizations operate, this becomes anathema to the life of Christ. Following church leaders with their authoritative text in mass took the place of life lived individually and together as worship.

    What is the answer, we ask? A return to Christ outside of the lost and wandering herd, individual faith and relationship, one on One, the REAL Good News.

  3. Reformed by the Spirit permalink

    Be careful….this walks on the border of creating our own God instead of allowing God to show himself in the scriptures. Are we really in a position to say that we are more capable when it comes to hearing the Holy Spirit than those who sought God in choosing canon scriptures? Do we believe that somehow our contemporary generations as somehow less corrupt?

    We live in a time that is further away that the original writers of the scriptures. We, most likely, lack the proper insight to what is really meant in these writings.

    • In essence I support you, ‘Reformed’ & Timbushong. Without realising it, many of the above comments are the result of being at sea in a boat with no landmark or lighthouse to guide it. If you’re at sea and the fog comes down, how will you find your way when everyone is shouting a different subjective opinion? You’re heading for the rocks.

      Subtly W. Christians have succumbed to the pressures of postmodernism where there is no objective truth whatsoever, only ‘your’ truth and ‘my truth.’ So whose right at the end of the day! Does 2 + 2 now = 5?

      Guyz, I am all for life in the Spirit, I am not into dead orthodoxy/fundamentalism and bibliolatry and contemporary evangelicalism, I promise you. Jesus died for me, not the Bible. But, if you want to play the piano, you can ‘ad lib’ as much as you want – there are some ground-rules that all good pianists observe. You need both form and freedom for there to be good music.

      As for the pseudo/deutero Paul theories, as someone who is reasonable au faith with Koine Greek and contemporary NT studies, give me half a dozen serious, committed, recognised, stood-the-test of time NT scholars who buy into this ‘pseudo’ theory?? I think not. By far the predominance of good, widely recognised, Spirit-filled and serious NT and Greek scholars like Donald Guthrie, F.F. Bruce, Leon Morris, John Stott, NT Wright, etc, would stand by the traditional authorship of Paul as to Romans and the Pastorals. There ARE apparent contradictions in Paul’s statements on woman’s ministry (I am pro-woman’s ministry!), but good examination of the text and contextualisation can resolve many of them. (By the way, I for one would not like my life to depend on the FBI, for goodness sake!)

      Of course the Spirit leads into the truth, and so does the Word. Read the words of Jesus himself in John 17, etc. The Word will honour the Spirit and the Spirit will honour the Word.

      The Church in the West has not realised that for a quite a while its centre of gravity has shifted south and east. I’ve travelled extensively in S. America, Africa and China, and the Church is in revival in many places. The Church there is outstripping the Western Church quantitatively and qualitatively as I write, and they accept the Word pretty much ‘authoritatively’ in their churches. Try casting out demons when you’re vacillating about the Word, they’ll laugh at you.

      By all means lets ask questions, I ask plenty. I had to leave my denomination because of awkward questions asked. But if you’re going to make sweeping generalisations about biblical authorship and the Greek text, etc, imho please make sure you’ve thoroughly done your homework.

      Grace and peace to you all,

      Erroll.

      • Erroll,

        Would you like to discuss the details of the history and the Greek text? We can if you like, because I have done my homework.

        I appreciate your thoughts, though I heartily disagree. It is easy to tow the party line…I have done it.

  4. One of my favorite quotes was from the opening lines in Braveheart…

    “I shall tell you of William Wallace. Historians from England will say I am a liar, but history is written by those who have hanged heroes.”

    Paul, I believe, was a hero. A hero hanged by men who wished to manipulate the Spirit among the church in order to produce a more acceptable manifestation of spirituality.

    So, we need to question authority, and that includes the authority of the canon of scripture.

    To some this is heresy; to others it is a matter of honesty. Intellectual honesty, spiritual honesty, historical honesty.

    I grew up being taught Paul wrote the pastoral epistles (1 & 2 Timothy & Titus), I am now convinced that there is more evidence, on all fronts (intellectual, spiritual, historical) that he simply did not.

    I could say so much more, and will eventually, but for these comments I’ll make it short.

    I believe Paul wrote portions of the pastorals. But editors, over time, compiled these portions and added to them. So, much of what makes up the pastorals is one side of the story, one slice of the pie.

    Think of how vast the church had spread by the late first and early second century. Many scholars will attest, and history reveals, that there were many many more Christians, churches, communities, whose stories and beliefs weren’t told or recorded. Many of these churches had no problem with women being full equals in Christ (Galatians).

    Others, for whatever reason, could not stand it. So, they wrote up the pastorals using Paul as an authority to change the tide and also make the church a more acceptable institution among Roman society.

    It worked, We still cling to this today…unless we ask the hard questions, to which there are quite a few really good answers.

    Question everything. After all didn’t Jesus once say something about the Spirit leading us in truth?

    Yes, Chris…it should indeed change everything!!! ;~)

  5. @Reformed by the Spirit:

    Why frame the question in the negative?

    “Do we believe that somehow our contemporary generations as somehow less corrupt?”

    Why not the positive?

    “Do we believe that somehow our contemporary generations can hear the same Spirit the early church did?”

    I do…

  6. History is written by those who are in power. Is there any reason to wonder why the Scriptures look like they do today?

  7. In relationship to spiritual warfare, it is important to look at what is or has been done surreptitiously and then ask ourselves, “Why?” By eliminating or marginalizing half of the body of Christ’s giftings in our sisters, what a blow the devil has stuck.
    Thanks be to God who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ, the light is now shinning into the churches darkness, and revealing for all to see what this imposter institution has been up to for over 1,700 years.

  8. Reformed by the Spirit permalink

    Then if you are hearing the same Spirit, why are you hearing different things? Is it negative to say that we suffer the same corruption as early generations?

    In order to maintain your stance, you have to decide that, somehow, our contemporary theologians have a newer and better revelation in days and times the are obviously becoming more and more corrupt. Christ warned us that in these last days, that even the elect would be fooled. Read Matthew 24…..think about it.

  9. Jim permalink

    I think that both John and Marc bring up some great points. The pastorals do represent a departure from Paul’s original views on women found in the seven letters that are attributed to him. The pastorals tend to represent more of a structured/political posture found in the then developing IC of which canonization was also a later component (evolution of orthodoxy).

    I would think that the involvement of the HS would more than compensate for any distance across time including all the way down to our time today. Of course even exercising our brains should reveal that some of what is in the pastorals is just dumb.

    And regarding Matt 24, Jesus spoke Aramaic and this gospel is written in Greek so I’m not sure anyone knows what is actually meant by the verses on the elect being fooled (if he even said those specific words).

  10. timbushong permalink

    I’m speechless… just no words to describe what is a clear derivation from all sanity. Using this methodology, I could believe damn near anything I wanted to!
    (yes- ‘damn near’… intentional use of the word that means “wrath of God remains”)

  11. @Reformed by the Spirit…

    So, how sure are you that the “different things” are not the popular belief of the day?

    Just because something has been believed for 1,900 years doesn’t automatically make it correct and anything contrary incorrect.

    When it comes to the scriptures, there is quite a bit of mystery, parable and hiddenness regarding truth. I think we are supposed to wrestle and struggle with it…test it…challenge it.

    That is exactly what Jesus did. But we have made him into something quite altogether opposite of who he really was and what he called us to do.

    Bottom line, I think most Christians don’t think critically enough when it comes to what they believe and why and this topic that Chris has raised is a classic example.

  12. But Tim haven’t many over the years also twisted the scriptures to agree with “damn near” whatever they wanted to do? Whole denominations have. How has lifting up and holding the scriptures as THE AUTHORITY been any better than anything else? I agree that they are authoritative, but the Spirit won’t allow me to hold them up higher than Him. The problem with scripture is the human condition..because everyone interprets . Thanks for hanging in there.

    • Agreed…it sure seems that the church does much better when it doesn’t have any written words to live by. The early church did fine with out “The Canon” and so do many many Christians today who live by faith and are inspired by the Spirit to live and love those around them.

      Don’t get me wrong, I love the Bible and am very thankful to have it. But if I had to choose – my relationship with God or the book…I’d take the relationship any day.

      Thankfully I don’t have to choose. But that just means I need to very, very careful about which one holds more weight, sway, influence.

      He/She who has ears to hear…

  13. The track record for the “inerrant”, “infallible” Scriptures (neither word being Biblical, by the way). This fairly recent doctrine, since so many Evangelicals sign onto it, you would think would bring a unity unmatched in the history of the church.

    What’s been the result of adopting this doctrine? The most bitterly divisive, denominating time the church has ever seen. Know the doctrine by its fruit.

    The Bible is a gift from God. He can breathe through it and speak to people any time he wants. The body of Christ is a very similar gift, “living letters” written with the story of God on their hearts, God speaking through them to anyone he wants.

    Applying the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy to the Bible is like pointing at a wrench, and calling it the whole toolbox.

    • "BK" permalink

      I will add my comment below this one as Jim makes a statement that comes to mind each time I read any of the above posts “know the doctrine by its fruit’. And realize fruit comes in seasons. Erroll made a comment “But, if you want to play the piano, you can ‘ad lib’ as much as you want – there are some ground-rules that all good pianists observe. You need both form and freedom for there to be good music.” This caught my eye because I learned the piano without the books or teachers. I knew where the ‘C’ chord was found so I decided if I moved all my fingers up 1 key, I would then have ‘D’, then ‘E’ and so forth. To this day I chord the piano with both hands when I play. One day I bought a book “How to play chord piano in 10 days” to help me out. What I found was an explanation of why I was doing what I was doing to play (and an explanation how to make an augmented and minor chord, which I had not known). This is also my experience often as I read the Bible….I often find something the Spirit spoke to me confirmed. Another analogy is that an apple is not an apple because the encyclopedia describes it as such. An encyclopedia can describe an apple because there IS one to describe. In my experience, the Bible is the encyclopedia describing what is a reality in Spirit.

      I don’t think we have to reason away why which books aren’t written by Paul; or not written when they are said to have been or any such thing. I find people do this because of their inability to get past the generally accepted beliefs of what the Bible means. As a woman I am not put off by any of the verses found that people believe are adverse to them (and I have not yet had time to read any of that particular blog yet). I, too, did an in depth study regarding the subject back in 1989 because I was going to teach a woman’s seminar the usual ‘God created Eve to be a helper to Adam’ subject. But, when I looked up the word ‘help meet’ in the Hebrew (using Strongs) I found it from a root word that meant ‘to stand boldly opposite’ and ‘complement’. No one had told me any different so this didn’t come from wanting anything more than the subserviant place I knew women to have. Then I noticed the very reason she was created to be a balance to Adam was because God had told him not to eat of the tree of knowledge, then He said it wasn’t good for Adam to be alone and then He created one who could walk with him in balance. Shocking stuff to me. All the bow low and submit came in AFTER the fall; and Jesus made a way BACK to that place where there is no longer male or female in Spirit; where we can walk together. That’s the short version. If anyone wants to read my findings I’d be glad to send them to you; my email is
      zbkzimmer@gmail.com and just ask me. I welcome pro or con input.

      I also don’t believe in a literal being called the devil, but if there was one I am sure he would be jumping up and down at all the discussion and controversy over the Bible. If one is seeking God and finding Him in the Bible, let us let them be free to do so. If one is seeking God and finding Him in the Spirit, let us let them be free to do so. If both, then so be it. God is so much more able to handle all the variety of His people than we give Him credit for. He is so able to balance…..and He often does it through the lively (some find them heated) discussions of the ecclesia. As has also been said here, may we find unity as we each put our portion on the table and sincerely read the others with as much openness as we can. I still believe what Jesus said of the believers when He said, “If they drink any deadly thing it won’t kill them”. Just my thoughts along the way as I try to catch up here! “BK”

  14. Shall we accept historians or philosophers (aka, egalitarian theologians) as approved to correct the letters of love shared among the ekklesias?
    I could not hope at any point to be answering to the Almighty One for pumping such a popular social-religious movement of both enticing and compelling women to be as men, or for men to be as women. Men like Barak [Judges 4] who demonstrate need for a woman to proxy them, inviting his outcome. Men who definably do not even understand women, then suggesting that a woman take up things for which men become so lazy and lax to do? Christ seeing both men and women together heralding the manta of kidults and fools; looking to their own comfort and popularity among crowds of worthless men, making good haste toward the Lake of Fire as if it will do them good.

  15. With respect John, how do you know that I’ve joined the ‘party line’? Do you have any inkling what it cost me and my family to break away from the traditional church and mindset? I could give you 10 different versions of the ‘party line’ and they could easily all differ. Maybe you also have joined a ‘party line’ of some sorts without even being aware of it? Who’s to judge?

    And what if I claim that the Spirit has shown me what I have learned after 38 years in traditional denominational churches (learning the hard way), only to be led out by the Spirit and into total freedom and fuller truth? Been planting/facilitating organic churches for 6 years, Spirit-taught members, definitely no party line because we only have one Head and he is Jesus.

    In any case I am not here to win arguments. So will call it a day…

    Peace to you brother,

    Erroll.

  16. timbushong permalink

    Chris- (I’ve been busy, so…)- you wrote: “But Tim haven’t many over the years also twisted the scriptures to agree with “damn near” whatever they wanted to do? Whole denominations have. How has lifting up and holding the scriptures as THE AUTHORITY been any better than anything else?”

    I don’t see allegiance to the Scriptures alone (as the sole infallible rule of faith as the reason)- it’s either placing traditions alongside Scriptures, or, and probably even more to the point, having an external authority placed alongside Scripture.

    Regarding “twisting”- it IS possible to twist, just as it is possible to “rightly handle” (literally “cut straight”) God’s Word.

    Jim mentioned inerrancy as a “fairly recent doctrine”. That’s incorrect- just because something has been formally enunciated recently doesn’t mean that is hasn’t been held to be true for a long time prior to that enunciation.

    • tim do you recognize the apochryphal books as inspired, too? And you do realize that the FIRST “authorized” KJ version (cough, hack gasp) contained those books, and said King was known to be more than a little homosexually inclined? And you do know that the vote on which scriptures were included by the Nicean council was not unanimous at all, it was a barely passed by narrow margin…and these guys were all supposedly led by the Spirit? Here’s a good place to apply some…what’s the word? Logic?

      This here’s just a repeat of the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day, having had centuries to “add to” and “twist” what the hard to receive and harder to understand LAW ,meant, and Jesus called them out for it. All things repeat the same pattern per Ecclesiastes, so it’s only natural that we would screw up the NT every bit as much as the Jews did the OT.

      Tell me where it says that only the learned and theologically educated would be able to understand the scriptures? nowhere, in fact it says that the wise would eventually be shamed by the foolish. Jesus stood up to the established religious powers that had taken over and totally gotten everything so backwards that they didn’t even recognize Him in the flesh. Same thing today…folks who have that Christ spirit in them stand among the Christian powers challenging their ‘understanding’ and they don’t recognize these of Christ’s, either, still looking for a “different” Messiah to come and slay their enemies. Nothing new here, just instant replay, as prophesied.

  17. Don’t most place traditions alongside scripture? Most “churches” I know of do. I still do not know how anyone who sincerely reads the bible can elevate the written Word to a place as high, or higher than God Himself. I see the Spirit as The Authority, but then again that would be an internal thing and not external right?

  18. Revien van der Westhuizen permalink

    A teacher that I hold in high stead taught me a very simple way of interpreting Scripture: “don’t put things together that God never intended to put together iow, mixing mud and water just gives you muddy water, and who can see through muddy water?” (my own interpretation of his comment). “You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you were baptized into Christ have
    clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3: 26-28.
    “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3). The first verse (Galatians) speaks of God’s spiritual authority – all one in Christ Jesus as sons of God, the other (Corinthians) speaks of God’s governmental authority – (Christ is God, yet God is the head of Christ). As a woman, I must submit to the authority of my husband (covering), but as a sister in the Lord, I am free to partake in the assembly by singing, praying, testifying (but I am not allowed to keep taking authority over the man by means of teaching: “But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness. For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:” (1 Tim 2:12-14)). If I look at these verses through “clear water” there is no confusion as to what Scripture is teaching us.
    One of the best views I have read on the subject of head covering and/or the role of women in the church is: http://naturalchurch.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/head-covering-a-revelation-of-jesus-christ/ (I am bias of course, because Tobie is my husband :))

  19. Gianna Rio permalink

    this is what th Lord revealed to me about women…the woman who is to submit to her husband (not to every man on the planet by the way) is the bride of Christ…and she is not to usurp HIS AUTHORITY…there is no male or female in the body of Christ bc we are all sons (male) by th new birth and we are all (both male and female) the bride of Christ…so both male and female are not to usurp the authority of our husband, Christ…

    the bride is to hear from her husband and take her questions to him and remain silent in the assembly..both male and female are to take questions to Christ, our husband, learn from Him and remain silent in the assembly…ONLY CHriSt is to speak, not flesh (male or female)…so that it is truly Christ who is pastor, shepherd, apostle, evangelist, preacher, teacher, etc…and much much more than this…

    this was never intended as about gender women, altho its been preached in that way…but when we speak of marriage, the woman is th bride of Christ and the husband is Christ–th harlot has no husband and th adulteress is unfaithful and is not married to Christ, the bride of Christ came from His side (pierced by the soldier and out poured ‘blood and water’–the bride of Christ indwelt by th Spirit of God [water]) just as th woman came from adam’s side…only Christ is the husband of one woman and is faithful adn true witness and we who are the bride, both male and female, dont usurp His authority but are silent (flesh bein silent and Christ increasing and speakin) in th assembly (we are gathered, assembled by the Spirit of God indwelling, fitly joined, etc)…and as husband He alone is to speak…just as the apostles spoke by the Spirit of God, so does th bride of Christ, bc its Christ in us who speaks…so that we are fed always by Him alone and hear Him alone…not male or female, and the prov 31 woman (i know a little off topic) is also th bride of Christ, not a human woman tryna be what only Christ’s bride can be…

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