The Standard; Or The Bible And The Spirit
Greetings,
The following is a blog from September 2011, but I felt that it might help in our ongoing conversation concerning being bible or Spirit led.
I want to start by pointing out that *some* of
us who have shared so far here at the BLOG probably really aren’t
disagreeing about the root of the matter. We just
differ some in perspective, or the way we have
come to understand and explain what we feel God
has revealed to us. And I feel this is just great.
God has offered us all a “table of truth & love” to
eat and grow from. Nice to know that it is always a
banquet or buffet; instead of an Ala’ carte burger and
fries served up by one clowns opinion (sorry
Ronald). It is however very important that we all
are talking about the same Spiritual meat.
Now more comments:
And so much of this is semantics.
I too am what some would call a student of the
scriptures, but what makes me uneasy about saying we
must be a “student” is that it *can* tend to exalt
our intellects. And also exclude those who feel they
are not smart enough to be a good Christian.
Having humble and open hearts always triumphs over
book learned smarts IMHO.
Some folks say that the bible is, “the only
standard of truth which we have”. And others call it
“the final authority”.
The reason this makes me cringe is that it
elevates doctrine to the ruler and head over all, and
tends to negate and destroy what I feel is
every persons reason for existence : RELATIONSHIP
WITH THE LORD and each other.
Having the bible as “the only standard of
truth” has not produced the type of fruit God
desires in the plethora of institutional/
traditional churches that have waved that flag
proudly for centuries has it?
Sure the bible is “A” standard of truth, but I
just can’t elevate it to “the” standard. The
bible is not God! And God is THE STANDARD.
Sure the bible is one of the tools that God has
supplied us with so we can understand the standard
(HIM), but I cannot equate the two.
Here is an interesting take on this:
We all know that the bible says, that “every
matter must be established on the testimony of
2 or 3 witnesses.” And I don’t think that
necessarily means like I have heard taught,
“Yep, I got my three witnesses. This scripture,
that scripture, and this here other scripture quote.
That’s 3 ain’t it?”
I believe that it could rather suggest a checks
and balances method that God
offers us so we can avoid gross errors in judgement.
1 John 5:8 seems clear (at least to me) here.
It says that, “There are three witnesses (these three
testify) the Spirit, the water, and the Blood.”
Here we got 1. the Holy Spirit and His leading for confirmation and all that entails, and many times The Spirit will lead us to the bible, but not always. 2. The water, which thru my studies proves to be LIFE - but not in the sense of circumstances; but rather in the light of relationship with others who share this new life from God. Both the testimonies of those living and those saints that have gone home before us, i.e.- mutual accountability and the answered prayers of the saints. And 3. the Blood, Jesus himself and his testimony which is recorded in the bible. And Jesus is the Word after all. However, I don’t equate Jesus being the Word as the same as He being the scriptures. Jesus is much more comprehensive than that. The bible is not the fourth part of the Godhead. Jesus sits on the throne, not the Book!
Hope I haven’t confused anyone, but rather given
food for thought.
And yes Tim, I know I had to use the scriptures to
prove my point 
And I agree that the bible is part
of the standard of truth, but it is joined and
supported by much more than itself. Which to me
gives it even more validity and creedance than if if stood
alone.
One more point then I’ll git out of here. Folks are
right when they say the Spirit is reliable, but we are
not. We can easily be decieved by our own feelings
and thoughts. People have used the Spirit told me
so to do some vile things throughout history.
But the same thing can be said for those who
have claimed the bible as their only standard of
truth. People have used the bible to enslave and
dominate others for centuries. The KKK use it to
promote racism and hatred. Think of the crusades and the
inquisition where many were slaughtered in the name of
the WORD. Women have been told to stay in
relationships where they are battered and
beaten because they were told the bible says so.
The list goes on and on.
Problem is we are human. We quite easily are
decieved by our own feelings and thoughts about even
the bible. Our interpretations of what we read in
there can be grossly full of error.
So I just can’t trust myself with only one
standard of truth.
Unless that standard is Jesus and the many ways
HE reveals himself.
Love and….
Kirk Out !
p.s. Does the bible reveal the truth of
the Spirit, or the Spirit reveal the truth of the bible?
And didn’t the Spirit have to reveal to the
authors what to write?
I am thankful for confirmation from all
the resources our source, The Lord , has provided us. I
long for both the forest and the trees. What a view,
it’s beautiful!
One of my first mentors drilled into my head something that remains: “Judge all experience by the Bible never the reverse”. This simple rejoinder has kept me from much error when followed. There has been given to us a standard for final authority in matters of faith and practice in the Holy Scriptures. That does not mean we are not led by the Spirit. But when our “Leading” contradicts the simplicity of the Word it is we who are wrong. The heart of man is desperately (incurably) wicked. We do not lose our tendency to sin and go our own way when we are saved, not even when we are saved for a very long time.
The fact that some, such as the KKK you mentioned (great example!), mangle the Scripture does not mean it is difficult to understand by those who are not reading into the text.
The opinion you voice here is not actually very new. It is a form of Christian Gnosticism that goes back to the rise of Neo-Platonism. I myself have in the past drifted into this manner of thought but was graciously corrected by God and will remain ever grateful for His grace.
Thanks for sharing Kirk. I am not a gnostic by any means. Funny, but even the scriptures say, ” As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they shall be called the sons of God.” The bible clearly states that we should be led by The Spirit. If this is true then why do so many follow the bible instead of the Spirit?
Mr. Pearson….please define both Gnosticism and explain the rise of Neo-Patonism…. thank you…
Brother Kirk I am so not calling you a Gnostic! Never ad-hominem with me only for or against ideas. Nothing but love for you my brother. The problem with being led by the Spirit without acknowledging the priority of God’s Word essentially means every man does what is right in his own eyes. If you believe you can walk in the Spirit without the Word as final authority my next question would be “Have you ever thought God said something and been wrong”? Most of us have. I advocate the traditional view of the Christian church from the beginning that the Bible had final authority. Another example: I believe our fellowship should do “x” you say “y”. Who is correct? Possibly both! Possibly neither. But the authority is not how we feel about it but rather what Scripture has to say.
Now to define Neo-Platonism: As Christianity grew the Greeks saw that their philosophies were being challenged by this young upstart group. The Neo-Platonics began to define a walk with God by what it wasn’t.This is called “The way of negation” or “Via Negationis” which is a way of defining something by what it is not. For instance the Neo-Platonist may refer to his pet as “not-a-cat”. This does not identify what the npet is, only what it isn’t. Is it a ferret? A dog? We cannot know. I prefer direct definition, ie: My dog.
Kirk, I say that even when people claim that the Bible is the final authority, most men still end up doing what is right in their own eyes, because everyone still interprets and comes to the table with various slants and biases. Big question here…….where in the bible does the bible itself claim to be the sole or final authority in all matters of faith and practice? Many places it says to be led by the Spirit and that the Spirit will guide us into all truth. So to me, the Spirit must be a priority. Still having said that I will still say that most everyone who knows me knows that I read and study my bible as much or more than anybody.
Forgive me having to lay down after this final exchange for tonight. The new medicine my doctor added has left me quite loopy and tired. Some scriptures that help with this come to mind quite readily: ps. 119.160, 2Tim 3.15-16, John 10.35 (that it cannot be broken), 2Peter 19-21 where the Holy Spirit Through Peter tells us God’s prophetic word (Scripture) was more sure than Peter’s seeing the Lord glorified on the mount of transfiguration, Heb. 4.12-13 Where God’s word even discerns our very heart motives. I love you brother and this is a very profitable and enjoyable discussion but my eyes are heavy. Please excuse me for now. Love you as always brother Kirk!
Kirk, I will be praying for you and your adjusting to your meds. I agree with all those verses you offered, but none of them say that the bible is the ONLY or FINAL Authority. I do affirm that all scripture is God breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. But God is still the final Authority and not the book inspired by and created by HIM.
greetings siblings…….
Kirk P., you mention 2Pet.1:19.
Could the more sure word of prophecy be not the scripture but the very words that issue from the mouth of Jesus? The voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son:HEAR HIM.”
And isn’t it written that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy? Rev.19:10
And Heb4:12&13.
This *word* here surely constitutes a knife in the hand of a High Priest and not scripture. And in the context of Heb.4 we are dealing with entering into the rest of God. Today if you hear His voice, harden not your heart.
“I say that even when people claim that the Bible is the final authority, most men still end up doing what is right in their own eyes, because everyone still interprets and comes to the table with various slants and biases.”
Most men do what they want because they simply don’t obey Jesus. All the fog about differing interpretions are a smoke screen for making room for sin and self-rule.
In your post you said: “And yes Tim, I know I had to use the scriptures to prove my point”
Exactly- because if you said that got this information straight from God to your mind (direct revelation), then you wouldn’t be given the time of day- it would just be your own subjective and unfalsifiable experience. Who’s gonna listen to that?
So Tim, you are saying you don’t believe in direct revelation? Many times I receive direct revelation from the Spirit and then sometime later I discover what He showed me in the bible. Since age 4 before I ever encountered a bible the Lord taught me things about Himself and the church, and then later in life I discovered that the bible said the same things HE had shown me directly. That still happens to this day. HE desires to share directly with all who seek to follow Him. HE is not bound by the book.
Tim,
Why does scripture tell us to test the spirits to see that they are from God, if we didn’t hear from both God and familiar spirits?
By the way, I appreciate your willingness to contend for Truth, and not just defend the system that so many earn a living from. Scripture calls them by different names, including hirelings, and blind guides, as they have a vested interest in not seeing the Truth.
I assure you, my only interest is Christ Jesus and His preemminence.
Mickey
“Scripture calls them by different names”
Yes- elders, pastors, ministers…
But Chris- you didn’t interact w/my post- who IS going to listen to you if you say that this stuff is directly pipelined to you by God?
Tim, Anyone who is sincerely seeking with the witness of The Spirit guiding them will listen.
Mickey- you asked: “Why does scripture tell us to test the spirits to see that they are from God, if we didn’t hear from both God and familiar spirits?”
That’s a common understanding of that text, but it’s actually referring to ‘people’- check the context of 1 John 4.
Chris- you wrote: “Anyone who is sincerely seeking with the witness of The Spirit guiding them will listen.”
To you?
Tim didn’t answer my question nor interact with my comments. I’m not sure who he was answering…
Tim, we need to listen for the Spirit in what anyone shares. That is my point. I sure hope people listen for the Spirit in what I share too.
the spirit of God is people and the spirit of anti christ is people? No, not people but spirits Tim, they happen to work through people…
Context is much broader then the paragraph surrounding the statement.
Example: In Matthew we see the thieves crucified along with Jesus had villified Him along with the crowd. Yet we see nothing of one thief’s repentance in Matthew. We need to see the other gospels to get the proper context!
Jesus and the Thieves:
Matthew 27:44 – The two thieves taunt Jesus.
Mark – The two thieves are mentioned, but there is no conversation.
Luke 23:39-42 – One thief taunts Jesus and is criticized by the other. Jesus promises the 2nd thief that they would be in Paradise that day.
Further context would include scriptures like, for example: Eph 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
As an aside, one of the top warnings coming out of “churchianity” today is do not judge! Well, if it is all about people, and the pulpits continuously preach do not judge today they are actually teaching to not test the spirits today. (Not that this is an issue that you have personally in your church.)
Hopefully you can see from this one set of examples that there is more to this testing of spirits then you first thought, Tim!
“Tim didn’t answer my question nor interact with my comments. I’m not sure who he was answering…”
I didn’t answer you specifically because of the supposition that you embedded in the question itself. You were assuming (incorrectly) that the phrase “test the spirits” has to do with some kind of divination or existential ‘hearing’ from someone or something that is disembodied. That’s incorrect, as the context of 1 John 4 makes clear. One ‘tests the spirits’ by judging whether or not a person’s teaching is orthodox. John even compares the spirits who teach according to the world with believers (vs. 5: “They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God.”)
Now, I am not saying that there aren’t principalities behind these false teachers and their false doctrine, but I am saying that the way we test these people is by the one standard of teaching that we have received, and that is the Bible. As John Gill wrote in his commentary:
“And this is what every believer, every private Christian should do; to them it belongs to read and search the Scriptures, and prove all things, and judge for themselves of the truth of doctrine; and to such a probation or trial of the spirits, spiritual light, knowledge, judgment, sense, experience, and divine guidance are necessary, which should be asked of God, and an increase thereof; and all such diligent searchers, and humble inquirers, are capable of making judgment of persons and doctrines, whether they are from the Spirit of God or not, for the Spirit of God never speaks contrary to his word: and the reason why such a trial should be made is…”
Then we are in agreement that the “test of the spirits” is by the Word in context. Whether we are testing the man or the spirit the man is lead by ends up being the same result.
We are also in agreement that the Word is the sole basis we use to test the spirits. There are people who claim extra biblical revelation which is evil and clear when judged by the Word. There are also folks who have extra biblical revelation that is confirmed by the Word in context as their words are not actual scripture, yet are clearly confirmed by scriptures in context.
This area is an area of great error today in what calls itself “christianity.” Further those in error NEVER warn to test the spirits!
As an aside, do you believe the “that which is perfect is come” is the printing of the bible as many teach? Or do you see that this post Calvary period is the time of the Holy Spirit being poured out on all flesh as the Comforter not neutered for this time until He returns?
By the way Tim, I appreciate your willingness to work through these things. So many of thses discussions degrade to armies of straw men and ad hominem sniper fire. It is refreshing to have iron sharpening iron as we contend for His Truth though we see through a glass dimly.
Chris, I have re-read the post and must say I too am lead by the Holy Spirit, who reveals everything Christ Jesus has for me, and like you, the Word is the key component we are lead to. This is precisely why error comes in whenever folks attempt to add to or take away from the Word, be it the written scriptures or the Living Word even Christ Jesus who the written scriptures reveal but only by the Holy Spirit.